With Great Power...

As I've mentioned before, my first trip off into bondage and kink wasn't as a Dom - it was as a submissive. I learned many things from her, both simple and profound. That is the first time I ever remember being uncomfortable with things around my neck, for example; I can't say for sure it started then, though it's the first time I have a clear memory of it. She introduced me to the idea of BDSM fiction, which I guess goes to show how innocent I was at the time (remember, this was many years before 50 Shades!). She taught me a fair amount about bondage - though not as much as you might think, since I'd been practicing knots and lashings in the Boy Scouts for more than a decade beforehand. She taught me my earliest lessons about sadism, about limits, about pain and about how to avoid injuring people. The most important lesson she taught me, however, was about how not to be a Dom.

My original domme - we'll call her Suzanne - was terrible, and it took me about a year to really figure that out. Suzanne was beautiful, charismatic, fun, energetic... But she was also harsh, selfish, capricious, unpredictable, difficult, moody, and arrogant - and she used people. It's very hard for a lot of people to separate the idea of "use" from the equation, because it's hard for them to imagine a situation where a person may enjoy or encourage treating them as a submissive - that "using a person" isn't the only possible scenario in this area - but even with a willing sub, a bad dom(me) can step over the line. Suzanne had the potential to be a good Domme, but instead, she was selfish.

Suzanne was selfish; she felt entitled to be served. She honestly felt that she was better than her subs, that she was owed service rather than deserving or being given it, and it's a perfect example of what Ash's - my fiance's - biggest problem seems to be with dominants: too many dominants feel entitled, and a sense of entitlement is invariably the sign of a bad dom.

One of the books I'm reading right now, coincidentally, just had a brief discussion related to this: it was a woman trying to explain the meaning of salutes and bowing to a totally alien being. She said they were a sign of respect. The alien responded suggesting they were signs of submission; the woman's reply was that they aren't solely signs of submission towards the person receiving the salute, because they also imply acknowledgement of responsibility. It's a remarkably clear description of how I feel about D/s relationships: they aren't one way.

When it comes down to it, D/s relationships are not about one person being better than the other, they aren't about one person being entitled to the service, they aren't about one person submerging their wants, needs and desires in favour of the other. They're about *both* people getting something. Very different things - one may get service and the other the chance to serve - but still *something*. What the dominant gets is usually very easy to understand, the submissive less so; but it's there in any healthy relationship.

I suppose, when I say "are not about...", what I really mean is "should not be". When they are about one person being better than the other, that's when they slip into use or abuse; that's when you get people like Suzanne. And of course, it's not always that clear-cut; switches are probably more common than purely dominant or purely submissive people. People can fall on both sides of this, depending on what they need.

I personally always insist, with anyone who comes to me for advice, that any dom(me) should try being a submissive first. Not so they can be abused or unhappy; simply to increase the chance that they don't take a sub for granted. There are a lot about "naturally dominant" people, who serially take subs and refuse to ever look closely at the situations they're creating... And it always makes me sad. Too many of them are the problem - too many of them are the cause of society's poor view of BDSM in general. Bad dom(me)s certainly offer a lot to society; but the only positive things they offer are object lessons.

Being a dominant is a responsibility. There are lots of jokes that can be made - the classic Spider Man quote is trite, but still true. A dominant tends to have far more explicit power in the relationship; but with that power comes the obligation to *use it to the benefit of the submissive*. This is a topic I could go off on for hours... And probably will at some point. It is, however, the most important thing to drive home to any new Dom - you're doing it wrong if you don't enjoy it, but if your sub doesn't enjoy it as well, you're doing worse than just making a mistake.

There's a lot of terms for D/s relationships: top/bottom, dominant/submissive, master/slave, power exchange, and various others. I think the best description I've heard, though, is "asymmetric"; because what there is is a difference. Not better, not worse, not more or less important... Just different.

As a closing thought, I'll leave you with this quote:

What separates privilege from entitlement is gratitude.

-Brené Brown

The Young and the Restless...

I missed my "scheduled" post on Tuesday this week; it's a side effect of a bunch of craziness in my life outside of this blog.I know it's hard to believe that I have a life outside of this blog, but trust me, it intrudes regularly - even if just in my getting sick or having family things to deal with. I will endeavour to hold such interruptions to a minimum, and maybe even eventually build up a small reserve of advance entries. In the meantime, I decided it made more sense to simply let the 4/22 entry slip and post this on Friday.

It occurs to me that if I'm going to be referring to specific people, at some point I'll need to call them by name - even if just so as to avoid some level of confusion over the constant "her"s and "him"s and "she"s and "he"s. So to that end, let me tell you a small amount about Daphne.

That isn't her real name, of course; but she's a fairly local girl I started talking with off of Fetlife. She's a college student who's fairly new to the scene and is looking for information - knowledge about these types of things, people she can chat with, people to play around with... The usual stuff. She has very little experience with it, however; in fact, she has little sexual or kink experience of any kind

Girl, hah; she's 27, but she's seven years younger than me. Some days, I feel very old.

I was originally planning on making my next post about trust, because there's a lot of aspects of trust affecting a lot of aspects of kink. I somehow doubt that surprises too many people, considering how much risk is involved; but thinking about Daphne made me realize that she doesn't trust herself, and that's part of the problem here. Part of the reason she doesn't have much sexual experience is because she's managed to convince herself that it's... Wrong, or makes her a slut, that it's not okay to enjoy herself in that manner; and part of the reason she hasn't explored kink is the same idea. That her kinky interests are a sign there's something wrong with her, not just a bit of a difference in how she gets off.

This is probably the biggest reason why people who otherwise might never get into kink - the total conviction that there's something wrong with it. It's what made kink so hard for me to get into for so long, years after I'd realized it was part of me. Knowing intellectually that bondage or sadism is something you want, and really intenalizing it - really becoming comfortable with it - are totally different things... And they can be a lifetime apart.

I'm sure it doesn't help anything that she is so inexperienced, because the unknown is always easier to be scared of - or to think the worst of. Ignorance breeds fear, after all. So I already encourage her to discover things, to explore her kinks... And to try and get over her inhibitions. Sex isn't evil any more than a pair of handcuffs are - and she's got a really late start onto it.

A first time on the floor...

I talked previously about people getting into kink and BDSM, and thought I would expand on that. There are, of course, dozens or hundreds of ways to get into this wonderful world of craziness, and it seems like everyone picks a different one. It could be a book, a movie, a TV show, a game with their friends.

Personally, my first memory of BDSM is a movie. By weird coincidence, I saw two shows on TV late one night - the first was "What The Swedish Butler Saw", an "erotic comedy" which had some BDSM themes; and the other one was some random teen angst movie where one of the plot points involved a girl losing a bet and cleaning a boy's room naked. I realize that the latter really had nothing to do with kink in general - it was some random 80s teen movie, and there wasn't even any nudity in it - but the two became linked in my head, not the least of which because of the dominance aspects one could take from it. My earliest thoughts of D/s - not that I realized that's what they were, at the time - rose out of those.

In some ways, I got very lucky in that. My introduction was very gradual - I had the chance to think things through before doing anything. The shock when they realize what's going on is the biggest problem many people have when being introduced to kink, and it can also depend on how lucky they are with what they encounter first. Some introductions are far gentler than others. Having your first introduction being someone asking you about trying out fuzzy handcuffs is probably going to scare noone, while having your first time be someone peeing in your mouth without warning is enough to make someone panic... Or at least very upset.

The first thing you need to do is talk about it with your partner. If you're interested, or if you think they are, having enough up-front communication to make sure it doesn't surprise either of you is important. Shock isn't necessarily good or bad, but it is unpredictable - being caught off guard is guaranteed to make whatever it is scarier. It's entirely possible it won't matter - after all, shock doesn't mean you don't like it... But it can ruin trust, at least in the short term.

Trust is such a huge piece of BDSM and kink in general. The obvious part is that a sub has to trust her Dom - after all, they have so much power - but it's important in every aspect. A Dom has to trust his subs, to carry out his orders... And at least sometimes, to trust they won't be "outed". Kink is a very private thing in most cases, and it can bring social and legal troubles when it's exposed.

First encounters don't always go bad because of trust, though. Kink is an area you should be careful getting into without thinking it through first, and without taking your appropriate safety steps. I, personally, have some level of claustrophobia; it makes MRIs difficult but also makes blindfolds, masks, and a number of types of bondage totally non-viable for me - they'll lead directly to violence or a panic attack. When your lover is trying to go down on you is one of the worst times to find that out.

It doesn't have to be any individual thing, either - it could be that you try five things which individually you can handle fine and even enjoy, but if they were all piled up on top of each other the first time, it's enough to make you panic. It's very easy to do too much your first time.

Take it slow. Don't pile too much up. Try it one piece at a time, with someone you trust. And make sure you've thought it through before you ever try it, no matter how innocent it seems. Make sure you know what you're getting in to.

A new thing to try...

I had a fairly long conversation yesterday with one of my old friends. We'd lost touch over the last year or so, but when she had surgery recently and we had gotten back in touch. We actually dated for a while, many years ago  - 18 years ago? Wow... - before she moved away; and have hooked up more than once since then both when I was near her on business, and when she has  visited me here. She was, in fact, also one of the first people who was ever my submissive. Maybe at some point I'll ask her to give me her thoughts on being a submissive, and why she isn't any more... But that wasn't why I brought her up. I bring her up because of yesterday's conversation. Specifically, while talking with her yesterday, she brought up her... Research partners from earlier in her life.

When we say “research”, in this case we mean trying out sexual practices… Or perhaps a more accurate term is “practicing”. To paraphrase her slightly:

The second one, we had a longer term agreement.
We would try out things we read about together.
Get feedback.
Figure stuff out.
Techniques mainly.
I basically blew him once or twice a day until I got great at it.
We worked on where it was ok to put his hands while I did it.
We worked on where I should put my handswhat he should never ever eat beforehand.
Ever.
We tried out different locations in the apartment.
Putting the pillows certain ways...

The conversation went longer than that, obviously… But I found the conversation fascinating. I spent a fair amount of time over the days since, and how it may have - or could - relate to other people I know. My circle of friends and acquaintances includes people from the most innocent, vanilla, virginal girls and boys you could hope for all the way through to what can only be described as "kinky perverted sluts"... And yet with just about every person I've ever discussed sex or kink with, I've seen blind spots... Things they were interested in but never explored, things they hadn't even considered but ended up interested in, things they didn't realize they desperately needed to avoid... Having a safe place, a safe person, to just explore things.

A number of people I know (the more conservative ones, at least) would immediately make the mental jump to "SLUT" and "WHORE", but to me it's just such a rational response. Sex is one of those areas with an enormous potential to turn bad; look at the mess surrounding things like erectile dysfunction. Being good or bad in bed, or even just inexperienced, can have a major effect on one's self-confidence, one's self-respect... And relationships are not inherently the best place to explore this because of the pressure involved. Even some of the most open and relaxed relationships can impose huge pressure and expectations on the people in it - even if the pressure is entirely self-imposed. A relationship specifically with the intention of exploring how things work, how to do them, trying them out could offer a lot in that direction.

I suppose the biggest problem there would be finding a problem with whom that type of relationship is even possible. Most people, I think, aren't really equipped for a no-strings-attached relationship - humans are too good at attaching the strings whether they intellectually know it's not what's happening or not. But that's a whole other topic for another day.

One of the things about BDSM is that it's very imposing to people from the outside. Ignoring the stigma and the fear and all of the baggage that arrives with the whole topic, it can be a very scary area to get into. It's all about whips and chains and spanking and handcuffs and masters and slaves and sadists and ropes and dungeons and... Well, any number of strange and frightening things. It is, in fact, a place where only in the rarest of cases will two people actually have the same desires and experiences, which makes it all worse. BDSM and Kink are areas where you can go a lifetime and never find a person who actually agrees with you on everything, and that makes it - sometimes - a very lonely and isolating place.

There is community in BDSM; there's "The Scene", groups of (approximately) like-minded people, all over the world; there are munches; there are dozens of major websites and scores of smaller ones; there are hundreds of pundits, professionals, columnists, bloggers, authors, and speakers... And yet when it comes down to it BDSM and kink are incredibly broad, incredibly big, incredibly imposing.

And there is a lot to be scared of. Not only are there an incredible number of things to try, but some of them are dangerous. Safewords aren't something to be scared of, but they are something to take seriously - they're there for a reason. People can be - and have been - hurt, injured, scarred, and killed by their kinks. This is part of what gives the entire culture such a bad name... And yet at its heart, it's still all prejudice - after all, the most dangerous thing most people do every day is drive to work.

So I guess this is my advice to all of you out there: take my friend's idea, above, and apply it to BDSM. Don't jump in with both feet; don't let it scare you or overwhelm you; try. Find someone you can trust, and just try one small thing. Something stupid or silly. Eat dinner wearing handcuffs. Watch a movie on the couch with a butt plug. Intentionally add one small thing to your sex life each day or each week - something different - and instead of letting the entire idea scare you, find out whether or not it works.

...And Hold the Sex, Part 2

I stopped at Barnes & Nobles today and - out of curiosity, as well as because it’s a fun toy - I did a few searches on their little mini computer kiosks. Unsurprisingly, since I started doing this a few days ago and I’m anxious to make sure I have topics to talk about, I searched “on-topic” - BDSM, bondage, submission, submissive, dominance, sadism, masochism. There are plenty of books in their system on those subjects… But excluding erotic fiction, only five in the store.

I took the time to go look at them, and the first worrisome sign was that they were all under “Relationships -> Sexuality”. Not only was every one of them a manual on “How to spice up your sex life using your kinky side!”, but four of the five were “50 shades of X”. (The fifth was “The Book of Kink: Sex Beyond the Missionary”, by Eva Christina, if you’re curious.) I’m certain that “50 Shades of BDSM” and “50 Shades of Kink” are both great books with several redeeming qualities, but it’s hard for me to take them seriously given the bandwagon they’ve jumped on… And it isn’t reassuring that there’s really nothing else there.

I looked through them enough to know that their classification under “Sexuality” was accurate and deserved in these cases. And don’t get me wrong, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that; I’m thrilled to know that there are books on safe, fun bondage and mild pain play alongside books on how to give better oral sex and the highlights from the Kama Sutra. It just frustrates me that they’ve been relegated to the little niche they’re in.

Not a single book on Dom/sub relationships. Not a single book on pet play or pony play. Not a single book on power exchange except when it comes to fuzzy handcuffs. Not a single book on the… I hesitate to say “serious side” of BDSM, but that’s very much how it came across to me. The only things they stocked were riding the “50 Shades of Grey” wave, and however nice it is to see positive, constructive discussion of the lifestyle, it makes me sad to know how terribly slanted the message they’re displaying is.

I don’t know if this is cause or effect. Are the only books on the subject under sexuality because that’s what B&N believes, or because that’s just all that sells? Functionally I suppose it doesn’t matter, but it definitely doesn’t help BDSM’s image. It does nothing but perpetuate the stereotype that bondage and kink are nothing but bedroom issues. I have most of my friends I’m out to well-trained on the subject, but just the fact that I have to address it every time is the heart of the problem. In the 18 or so years of my activity in the lifestyle, I can think of one person where I *didn’t* have to introduce the idea that it wasn’t all about getting off.

In the end, I know that most of my attitude arouind this comes down to my own prejudices, but mostly it's just a reward thing. The human brain seeks activities which reward it; and sex is one of the most common rewards around (right after food). It's very easy for me to bemoan the lack of non-sexual BDSM culture when sex isn't the same reward it is to me as the majority of society. That's okay, though; I'm used to being an outlier, and some people in the Fetish community make me feel downright vanilla.

I wish there were a good fetish book store in the area - something that would cover the subjects more evenly. In a bigger city there might be; and you can always have one just by the luck of the draw. Next time I’m there I’ll do a search on a few different topics - other less-than-socially-acceptable things, like polyamory, pet play, pony play, age play, and whatever other various fetishes come to mind at the time. For now, if I want to read something on the subject - and I don’t want it to just be soft core porn - I’m going to have to resort to Amazon, and I recommend you do the same.

...And Hold the Sex

One thing that frequently confuses the people I speak with is the idea that I'm interested in bondage and domination but not particularly interested in sex. Being a self-proclaimed demi-sexual/asexual, it can confuse people, simply because so much of the population has it firmly ingrained in their head that BDSM is a purely sexual thing... But that's just an assumption, or at least an over-simplification.

Let me just start by saying, it can be. The fact that *I* don't treat it sexually - most of the time - is in the minority. In my experience, most people do, and there's nothing wrong with that. The most common forms of BDSM are the less subtle ones, like fuzzy handcuffs from Spencer's or spankings in bed... Or at least those are the ones people talk about. How many people, though, enjoy - either really or just in their lip-biting fantasies - being pinned up against a wall while their lover kisses them? Or having someone's hand tangled in their hair while they make out? Or having someone hold their wrists down while they have sex?

I realize that most people will look at that and say, "Yes, but you're just talking about sex!" My point, however, is a matter of... Well, at the risk of being scowled at, shades of grey. BDSM is always very subjective and very personal. One of my favourite sayings about it has been that if you go into a room with 10 masters and 10 slaves and ask them what BDSM means to them, you'll get 25 answers - which is maybe a little bit of hyperbole, but at least gets my point across. Everyone has a different pain tolerance; some people adore pain, and look forwards to welts and bruises and cuts and burns. Some people can't stand it, and love to be dominated - perhaps even tied up - but refuse any kind of sadism. Some people love extreme pain, but panic when tied up, or simply don't enjoy bondage. Some people have incredibly strong independent streaks and cannot be comfortable as a submissive. Some people love being submissive, but only "in the bedroom" - in very limited situations and scenes. Some people want their entire life to be shaped around their master or owner, and are simply happier under someone else's control. Every aspect of it is a range from the vanilla to the extreme, and the combinations are literally infinite.

So why is it so surprisng that the other expected aspect of the situation is on a scale as well? Every social group has its Alphas. That's rarely sexual in a work environment, rarely sexual in a social environment - why is there this prejudice that as soon as it slips into formal submission, or overlaps with bondage, that it has to be sexual?

This is a topic I've dealt with for years, and yet have always had some level of trouble explaining for exactly that reason; mostly, the answer is "you're making an assumption, and as long as that assumption's there it's very difficult to meaningfully answer." In my case, my sadism is linked to my sex drive; I do get off from hurting people... But my dominant side isn't, for the most part. Can I enjoy dominating someone? Yes. Do I introduce sexual aspects into my Dom/sub relationships? Of course. Is that why I do it? No - no, it isn't. I'm a dominant for the simple reason that I'm more comfortable that way. With some people, it never comes up; and with some people, my relationship has simply been framed that way, and I don't know how else to do it. It's not a conscious choice - it's my state of mind. I may as well ask, why *aren't* you submissive to your spouse? Or how *could* you only be involved with BDSM in sexual situations?

It's funny, you know; people involved in this lifestyle usually are more open-minded, and yet this is an area where even Doms and subs can be close-minded about it - and blind to the fact they're doing it. Society at large can be so closed-minded about BDSM as a whole, and people in the lifestyle are usually so proud of their open-mindedness that they're shocked when you point out their own blind spots. I'm a dominant because not because I'm feeling forced to, or because I think it's expected of me; not because I can't get it up unless someone's tied up, or because ordering a girl around gets me hard... I'm a dominant because, for better or worse, that's how my brain is wired.

Getting Back on the Rails

This blog is somewhat of a continuation of a train of thought from a different blog... An effort to both partially disassociate it from my main one but also make it public/unsecured. It's not clear to me at this point how well that's going to work, but that's fine. It's somewhat inspired by the Savage Lovecast episode I mentioned yesterday, or perhaps it's more appropriate to say that that was the final straw that made me (possibly foolishly) think this was a good idea; the line of thought has been going on for a long time. The point I'm trying laboriously to reach, though, is that I've never come out as kinky to a bunch of my friends or any of my family, and I'm becoming far more self-conscious about it.

I mean, there's a large portion of my friends who do know, don't get me wrong. Hell, at this point, a significant number of my friends are involved in BDSM or Polyamory themselves, which makes the whole thing easier; but a significant number of them (especially my friends from longer ago and my entire family), aren't and don't... And it's very imposing to consider telling some of them. And yet at the same time, intellectually, I know it's self-defeating to not tell them - it puts us in a situation where they like me for who I'm not, rather than liking - or disliking - me for who I am... And that's a mistake. It's easy to say, of course, "That's a mistake", and yet much harder to do it - so this is a step in that direction.

Makes it sound so ominous, doesn't it?!? That's okay, it's not - at its heart, it's pretty simple - I'm a dominant, I'm a sadist, I'm polyamorous, and I'm demi-sexual. Historically most of my relationships have been both vanilla and monogamous... But for more than 15 years now, that's been in respect of my partners, not necessarily by choice. I've had multiple long-term submissives, a number of shorter-term subs that either were a bit more special-purpose or simply didn't work out. I've also - primarily recently, like the last two-three years, but to a lesser extent much longer than that - had multiple relationships and multi-person relationships. On top of that, my sex drive is unusual; sex itself interests me very little; and while I do get turned on by a number of things, they frequently are not the things people tend to expect or assume.

This is a list of things that took me... Well, better than 30 years to figure out. The actual facts haven't changed much in that time, but my understanding and acceptance of them has changed drastically, even in just the last few years. I have gotten some very askance looks when I've referred it to "coming out" before, but it definitely applies in its own way. I strongly suspect, for example, there are far more people in our culture who are okay with the idea of two men or two women being married who'd be rather upset by the idea of a man and two women being married... Or a man in dedicated, long-term relationships with two women. At the very least, that's my experience. It's not easier to admit to people what my interests actually are. It may not be easier, or harder, but it's still important... And something that people should know.

There's a lot of intolerance out there for *any* alternate lifestyle, whether it be homosexuality, queerness, or alternate lifestyles of a different sort. It's depressing to me sometimes to see how totally people disassociate the concepts, as well... But I think that's an idea I want to explore more another day. There's lots to expand on here, a lot of thoughts I think I'll need to finish another time... But for today this is enough.

In other news, life is full of strange coincidences. Yesterday, my fiance told me of a conversation with a coworker on the subject of BDSM - apparently, she wants her boyfriend to "dominate" her. After hearing the entire conversation, I'm pretty convinced that what she *actually* wants is just some nice mild bondage and maybe a spanking, but hey, not my business. I did forward the offer to talk to her and her boyfriend if some Q&A time would be useful to them, but I don't really expect them to take me up on it. Still, it's cute to see people feeling blindly towards the light... So to speak.

*tips hat*

I was just thinking...

So my fiance recommended an episode of the Savage Lovecast to me, and it was unusually precise at helping me clarify some of my thinking.

That's sortof an ominous beginning to a blog entry! I can understand that, especially for something that relatively few people know about me. Though I've been thinking recently - how few people *do* know about it? I'm honestly not sure. Recently I've been far more open in general with my kinky side; I formally consider something along the lines of "public but undisclosed." I mean, I'm not ashamed of it, and I don't really necessarily consider it private; I just choose not to make a public discussion point of it in most forums. It's not, at least in many circles, "socially acceptable", no matter how much better it is than it used to be. It has the potential to cause trouble with my ex-wife - it has in the past - and there's always the risk of people reacting badly, say, at work. "That guy's a pervert!" is a constant risk. What if this blog entry came up on the inevitable Google search when I'm applying for my next job? There's nothing wrong with it - I do nothing illegal or, at least in my opinion, immoral - but there are people who disagree with at least the latter point there... And it's easier to not give them ammunition.

So is that me wimping out? To an extent, yes. In the same way I couldn't care less that some of my friends smoke weed as long as they don't shove it in my face, most of them don't care - but some do, and the ones who do almost invariably care in a negative way.

So... The episode. It was interesting, because it talked a lot about poly/open relationships, and how to introduce the idea to kids. When it's okay, when it's not... And the real takeaway is, the kids should probably be the last to know. It helps, though, if it's not weird or strange to the child - if it's just status quo. A secret shared with a kid, won't be... So it's easier to start under that assumption. If there's going to be friction, you - as the adult - should take that friction on yourself, not impose it on them. If you have to come out to your parents, especially if the kid in question has a relationship with them, do it first. If it's going to touch on other things - like doctors offices, or school districts, or whatever - figure that out first. If it's going to turn into a major social thing in the neighbourhood, or a problem professionally, then maybe it's just a bad idea up front.

In some ways, it's far easier now - after all, the definition of a marriage, a relationship, or a family is broadening so much that this is becoming easier. A couple of decades ago, divorces were rather more rare, let alone same-sex couples. A “normal parenting family” has gone from a kid with a mother and a father, to a kid with two mother/father pairs... And it’s a smaller step from there to a kid with two mothers, or two fathers. Or, in my case, my son and his three mothers plus one father. I feel like the step is even smaller – in most non-closed-minded, non-bigoted circles – from three mothers and a father to four mothers and a father... At least for most of us.

I guess my point is, it gives me hope.